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Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.13 14:15:31 -
[1] - Quote
Because PLEX are massively underpriced. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.13 16:26:17 -
[2] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Because many players like to play without spending RL cash on EVE. Many people like to have a second account without having to pay two subs. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.13 16:43:59 -
[3] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Without heavy manipulation the price would fall But we are not planning to take our foot off the accelerator any time soon.
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Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.13 17:17:31 -
[4] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:I stayed out of the T2 BPO market for years because I knew a crash was coming. Sadly, by the time the crash did come (five years after I had come to my conclusions) I could have made more than enough profits to have covered the final crash losses. I think I may just be too risk averse  The trick was to use your T2 BPOs as collateral on loans that you use to buy more T2 BPOs.
Someone has to hold the bag, but it doesn't have to be you. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.16 07:23:30 -
[5] - Quote
Xanato Kaso wrote:The only reason I am able to play is because of PLEX I have sympathy with your situation.
In the real world I'm semi-retired and have to live on an income 1/4 of what I was earning a few years ago. If PLEX was not an option, EVE would not be an option for me. I also have very little interest in playing EVE with only one account. I've had to cut down to 8 accounts from a much larger number in recognition of the rising costs and dwindling utility of those additional accounts.
Both of us serve at the pleasure of the PLEX market.
All I can suggest is that you look into the options for what you can do in parallel with your core gaming experience using the multiple accounts you have to make a little more isk on the side and ease the burden on your mining income. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.16 12:08:10 -
[6] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:there's other ways that require very little effort that you can do while mining to increase your income :). Trading Manufacturing Blueprint research Invention PI
Any one of these can be set up to run in the background, using the resources you already pay for in having multiple accounts.
They need not distract you from your core gameplay, they just have to contribute to paying for it. |

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Posted - 2014.11.19 20:16:20 -
[7] - Quote
Zahara Cody wrote:Prices are falling... sell. ...to my buy orders. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.20 13:58:29 -
[8] - Quote
If you have to ask these questions, then chances are the excercise would not end well!
But it is absolutely possible to profit from an approach like that. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:44:01 -
[9] - Quote
Elvandari wrote:sometimes it is really hard to make profit from trading PLEX due to broker fees and taxes That is deliberate.
Closing the gap between buy and sell so that only people with very high standings can profitably trade an item is a tried and tested method.
This works well on items with high price and high traded volume, as you can make a non-trivial amount from each trade and multiply that by a large volume of trades. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.11.21 15:06:33 -
[10] - Quote
Now this thread is going places. |

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Posted - 2014.11.26 13:23:45 -
[11] - Quote
We're heading back towards the stars again. |

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Posted - 2014.11.30 17:14:39 -
[12] - Quote
A lot of players that exited the market during the crash have now bought back in.
The market graph has gone back in time by a few weeks and speculators wallets have inflated. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.12.13 06:50:29 -
[13] - Quote
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:Marsan wrote:Personally with the multiboxing changes I'm serious thinking of converting a large amount of my isk to trit, ice and the like rather than invest any more in plex. Isboxers claim they already have workarounds for the nerf. Sure, they might have to perform 10 clicks instead of one now and use fleetwarp but I reckon that's a burden they are able to carry  Multiboxing is still a thing and it still eats up muchos PLEX.
I've multiboxed pretty much everything in EVE, including a lot of things people still tell me you cannot multibox, and I've never used any input multiplication. I have however eaten a metric **** ton of PLEX.
Talking about this is reminding me of the frankly embarrassing amount of money I spent on multiple subscriptions before I eventually switched over to PLEX. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.12.16 08:52:41 -
[14] - Quote
I don't think they ever discussed those details. |

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Posted - 2014.12.29 20:58:46 -
[15] - Quote
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:General Economy = Stagflation Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:Easy, I never used the word "Stagflation" Jerry T Pepridge wrote:lets see toad wiggle out of this one. 
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Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.01.06 17:04:44 -
[16] - Quote
Well, I'm glad that's all over. |

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Posted - 2015.01.16 13:17:57 -
[17] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced.
|

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Posted - 2015.06.20 06:12:07 -
[18] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:One way CCP can reduce the price of plexes is by making the servers only allow one account for one computer. I doubt the majority of the player base can afford 7 accounts along with 7 different machines running and then the money lost on the maintenance needs of such a set up.
Although, I feel like I'm the only one with the opinion that there shouldn't be alt accounts. I feel that both CCP and the player base is against this. I had to put my two cents in anyways because I can and felt like it. An interesting suggestion, which I'd like to respond to in detail.
First off, I would like to make it clear that I am in the opposing school of thought. I'll give you a little background about me so that you can understand where I am coming from and maybe get a little insight into someone who plays the game differently to you.
I like alts, I have lots of them, I always have had lots of them and I doubt I would play EVE at all if I could not continue to have lots of them. For me, EVE is an RTS or party-based RPG game, and I use my alt army as a team to achieve my goals. This makes the game interesting for me and helps compensate for many of the game's shortcomings in depth, engagement and useability.
I will take this opportunity to point out that I have never used ISBOXER or any similar tool. I started out using one PC with one screen, alt-tabbing between clients. I moved to dual screens. Then two PCs with four screens. Then three PCs with six screens. Throughout this period I was using a separate keyboard and mouse for each PC.
I then discovered the Microsoft Garage tool, "Mouse Without Borders" and was able to replace three keyboards and mice on my desk with only one. The single set of input devices could be used to control all three PCs, as if they were one PC with a massive desktop, no input multipexing was used and every click and keypress was made by me on each client separately. This allowed me to reduce the size of my desk a great deal, which was a godsend for my console collection which has been fighting my PC for space in my room for many years.
I then replaced all three PCs with one eight-core machine with three video cards, hosting six screens.
The largest number of accounts I have used effectively at once is 20. The largest number of accounts I've had subbed is somewhere in the mid-20s. I currently have only 8, because I've reduced my investment in EVE and reduced my playtime as a result of CCP's disastrous customer service performance and the draw of other games on my limited time.
I paid for all my accounts on my credit card for many, many years, long after I had enough ISK income to painlessly support them all on PLEX. I finally made the switch to PLEX supporting my entire account set after I retired from my career in IT and had to make some tough decisions about how I used my money going forward.
I feel that my play style is just as valid as your single account play style. I feel that each player should do what works for them, provided they remain within the rules. However, I do not believe that all players will respect the rules if there are ways to circumvent them.
If a one account limit was placed on the game, I would simply quit, along with many other players. However, many other serious multi-boxers who are not as rule abiding as I am would use software and networking tools to circumvent the one account limit and proceed as if nothing had changed. The people who would suffer most, other than CCP (from the lost income) would be those that just run two accounts on one PC. For extreme multi-boxers it would just be a minor bump in the road, but for casual multi-boxers it could ruin their game experience or force them in to rule-breaking behavior which may be the start of a slipperly slope.
For those that will read this massive tract of text and say: why don't you just play with other people. I'll point out that I do personally prefer to play with others, I have been or still am a prolific FC, a CEO of many player corps, an alliance leader, Alliance Tournament captain, I spent about three years flying with Pandemic Legion and many more years (I lose count) with HYDRA RELOADED and other PvP focused groups. I don't just (or indeed ever) sit with 20 hulks mining solo in some dead end 0.0 system farming to pay for my PLEX (not that there is anything wrong with that if you enjoy that kind of thing).
So TLDR:
1. A limit would not be enforceable, it would be trivial to circumvent for anyone who cares to. 2. You should not underestimate the lengths that some people will go to in order to play the game the way they want to. 3. It would be terrible for CCP to do this, from both a financial and customer service perspective. 4. The people most harmed would be the casual players.
Oh and pics or it didn't happen:
http://imgur.com/ZZVqvpi http://imgur.com/xlSJpc3 |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.06.20 07:09:04 -
[19] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Is that actually a record player? Of course it is.
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Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.06.20 07:53:53 -
[20] - Quote
flakeys wrote:If it wasn't for plex that i used to sub till somewhere 2021 i wouldn't even have this acc active. Well, at least I know you'll be around to keep me company for some time. 
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.06.20 08:06:23 -
[21] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:flakeys wrote:If it wasn't for plex that i used to sub till somewhere 2021 i wouldn't even have this acc active. Well, at least I know you'll be around to keep me company for some time.  Till someone put's out the lights mate , that is the plan  . That was always my plan to, but CCP does like to try my resolve... or maybe they're just trying to find the light switch?
Honestly though, there is no other game like EVE. Even EVE itself struggles to remain like EVE and is becoming less and less with each passing month. It's great to be able to look back on over a decade of playing a classic game and the massive player achievements that have occurred in that time (some of them I even participated in). I find it difficult to explain it to people who don't play EVE or only have a casual relationship with the game. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.06.21 10:42:14 -
[22] - Quote
Asinar wrote:Here's my story. If you want a positive change in your circumstances, you are going to have to be willing to change them yourself.
It's no use hoping to forever cover PLEX costs while still doing the EVE equivalent of a minimum wage job.
While all play styles are valid, some simply don't pay the bills.
|

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Posted - 2015.06.21 11:58:10 -
[23] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:Is that actually a record player? Of course it is. And it's powered by a waterwheel. Don't give me ideas.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.08.23 07:04:31 -
[24] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced. ...and probably even more so, nine months later. |

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Posted - 2015.08.24 02:13:19 -
[25] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Because PLEX are massively underpriced. ...and probably even more so, nine months later. Say it ain't so Bad Bobby! Where do you think they need to be to "fairly" priced? Players who are in-game poor and/or inept mostly push the PLEX price down, as they tend to sell them rather than buy them.
Players who are in-game rich and capable mostly push the PLEX price up, as they tend to buy them (either for use or as an investment).
Once the bar for affording PLEX to sub an account rises to the level where a moderately established and capable player cannot afford them, then we have hit our price. We aren't even close to that point yet.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.08.24 04:35:39 -
[26] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:Where do you think they need to be to "fairly" priced? Players who are in-game poor and/or inept mostly push the PLEX price down, as they tend to sell them rather than buy them. Players who are in-game rich and capable mostly push the PLEX price up, as they tend to buy them (either for use or as an investment). Once the bar for affording PLEX to sub an account rises to the level where a moderately established and capable player cannot afford them, then we have hit our price. We aren't even close to that point yet. I disagree with that last part. PLEX should not be billions. Then you get into $20 being billions and easy to get ISK, more so anyways. So that would really screw the economy. Oh man, I need 10 billion, that's just $40. No big deal. I think current prices are right about where it should be. It is already easy to get isk. You can play the game to make 1B easily or you can exchange a PLEX with someone who plays the game to get 1B easily.
The isk still gets made by someone playing the game, the isk still gets spent by someone playing the game and the PLEX subscription option allows more people to play the game. All of that gameplay is good for EVE and good for the economy.
If there is something wrong, it's with the balance of sinks and faucets. CCP need to use the new structures and new sov mechanics to soak up more isk from the system. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.08.24 06:03:27 -
[27] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:You must be space rich? :P It's not that easy for most to make billions. If you don't know how, you can learn.
If you are unwilling or unable to invest the time and effort required and still expect to be able to afford PLEX when so many other players are willing and able to put in that time and effort, then you are just expecting too much.
James Zealot wrote:Most of the time, it's time that's the enemy. I know of quite a few ways to make multiple billions in a month, but only if I had tons of time. Sure you can do market trading, "passive" in some ways, but you have to spend the time researching the items to sell. Lots to consider. Yes. Everyone has the option of exchanging lots of time and effort for isk, through grinding whatever profession they choose. But if they choose a poorly paying profession they have to accept the inefficient conversion of time/effort to isk that comes with that.
You also have the option of investing some of your time, effort and isk in carrying out the research, planning and investment needed to enter a better paying profession and gain a more efficient conversion rate. It is generally the failure to do this that traps EVE players in wage slavery, where they spend more time grinding for isk than enjoying the game. It's a poor choice that so many people make.
James Zealot wrote:Anyways, so sure someone pays for that PLEX the guy just bought for $20, but the more that $20 is worth the more someone is enticed to pay for more isk. Good for CCP sure, but then the market will be more saturated. If you are saying the market will become more saturated with PLEX, then I don't see that as a problem since the market would correct and PLEX prices would drop.
If you are saying the market will become more saturated with ISK, then no, because the ISK is just passing between players. It doesn't get created by the PLEX trade, only consumed by taxes. The market is already saturated with ISK and CCP needs to deal with that separately. It's not an issue with PLEX, but a separate issue that contributes to rising PLEX prices.
James Zealot wrote:I'm not sure what you believe fair price is, maybe it's not above 2billion. Maybe 1.5b is a good price. No one person gets to make that determination. Instead it takes all of us, pulling and pushing at the market, to decide what price it should be at. The fact that PLEX price has been trending upwards since it's introduction tells us a lot here.
I could personally cope with PLEX at 3B or so, more than that and I would have to look at further improving the efficiency of my isk making. I expect the point where the moderately established and moderately capable players cap out would be lower than that, but I'm only guessing. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.08.24 06:04:13 -
[28] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:Still, I like to use my limited time a week to make enough to sub my accounts. It gets harder as PLEX price goes up lol So, you have chosen to play the game in an inefficient way. If you are happy doing it that way, then great. If you aren't, then you should change.
James Zealot wrote:I think it's mainly just the market moguls that are worried about prices so much. The market moguls are generally rich enough that PLEX price isn't a concern for their subscription. But of course, if they use PLEX as an investment they'll be plenty concerned about the price.
I think it's the people who grind to feed their accounts that are most concerned about the PLEX price, because their survival is endangered by it. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.08.24 06:34:14 -
[29] - Quote
CCP has provided us with so many options for making isk.
Each account can host three characters and each character can host:
305 market orders 11 manufacturing jobs 11 science jobs 21 personal contracts 60 corporation contracts (and even more contracts to corporation members) 6 command centers for PI 6 R&D agents for datacores
On top of that, you can run as many of the following as you can handle:
Moon mining POSes Reaction POSes Syphons on other peoples moon mining and reaction POSes Customs offices Forum posts that generate isk by various means (shops, services and scams)
All this before you consider fully active grinding with one character on the account doing PvE or whatever.
So with all that at your disposal, if you can't make bags of isk each month then you have to be doing something wrong. You have options to choose from regardless of whether you lack SP or isk. You just need to invest some time and effort in finding something that works within your limitations. If you can't afford that time and effort, minimal as it may be, then you can't really expect riches. |

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Posted - 2015.08.24 07:36:46 -
[30] - Quote
James Zealot wrote:I'm not "smart" like you with all the eve isk making opportunities. I don't doubt that I have some advantages over you.
I've been playing the game seriously and continuously since 2005, less so before that. I have lots of characters, SP, isk, assets and friends. It is my nature to seek out knowledge from wherever and whoever I can get it. I appear to be better than average at linking different pieces of knowledge together to come up with an effective plan.
On the flip side, I suffer from dyscalculia, so I have a hard time dealing with numbers, arithmetic and related things. I'm obsessive compulsive, so I routinely make sub-optimal decisions due to the need to have things neat, ordered, symmetrical and predictable. I live a fairly frugal existence in real life and could not justify the cost of EVE subscriptions if PLEX wasn't an option. I therefore have to accept the burden of PLEX cost regardless of how high it goes, because I have no real alternative.
So for me, as with everyone, the trick is in finding ways to make isk while working within my personal limitations.
James Zealot wrote:You can't just jump into eve and start making billions without someone showing you how that has been doing it for a long while. But with all the forums, wikis, videos, streams, guides, channels, tools and amazingly knowledgeable and helpful people in the EVE community, that is more or less available to anyone.
James Zealot wrote:Market trading and incursions come to mind for great opportunities. Both can be lucrative, but work best if you have money and time to put in to them.
If I were in your position, I'd be looking at things that require only a little isk and time to set up and provide a semi-passive income thereafter. Time spent on things like that reward you for your entire EVE career (unless CCP nerfs them) and offer good isk/hour once all things are considered. But most importantly, these are not things you have to do instead of your regular carebearing, but can be done in addition to it. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.08.25 03:36:56 -
[31] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote:Just chiming in to point out that some of the things you named (R&D and PI in particular) are passive in name only. It wasn't supposed to be a list of passive income streams, but a list of resources each character has available to generate isk.
I agree with you on R&D agents, as they are terrible now. If you haven't already got them going, I wouldn't bother setting them up. If you have got them going, cash them in as infrequently as you can to improve your effective isk/hour.
PI depends on how you do it. Factory planets with no extraction require little effort to maintain, you just need to visit the POCO regularly to feed in fresh inputs and take away your product. It's similar to running POS reactions. Whereas more mainstream PI is a bit of a grind, as you say. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.08.25 11:52:17 -
[32] - Quote
Now, back on topic...
Look at that PLEX price go!
(1,040M Sell / 1,025M Buy in Jita atm) |

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Posted - 2015.08.29 03:45:03 -
[33] - Quote
Painkill3r wrote:Alexi Stokov wrote:I'm surprised we have not seen a recent PLEX sale. The last one was less than a month ago iirc. AND... The PLEX sale begins. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.01 13:08:33 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:We have deployed a patch to fix this issue.
Please close your EVE Client and EVE Launcher and then restart the Launcher. This will update the client removing the bug.
|

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Posted - 2015.09.16 18:52:05 -
[35] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Are people buying at that price? Yes, they most certainly are. |

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Posted - 2015.09.22 03:38:58 -
[36] - Quote
I don't know what you people are talking about.
PLEX is still massively underpriced. |

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Posted - 2015.09.22 10:14:26 -
[37] - Quote
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:Personaly, I choose the latter, because I prefer spending time blowing ships. And I suppose a lot of people agree with me. I certainly do.
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:But PLEXs are the best "retirement fund".
I know that if I have the ISKs to afford 24 PLEXs, I will play for free for two years, whatever happens to their price. Indeed. Unless someone finds a way to turn me into an immortal and I become a RL pod pilot, I'm subbed in this game until I die.
Fornost Fornostsen wrote:And they probably will not 'panic sell' if the price begins to fall, because it's a "retirement fund".
What if CCP shuts servers down in the meantime? Your PLEXs will be worth nothing, but so will do your liquid ISKs and/or your assets. Yep, when the apocalypse comes, none of these minor concerns will matter.
Plus it's important to remember that PLEX doesn't just pay for subs. I've paid for about 40 collectors editions, HD steams, loads of dual training and a whole bunch of other stuff with PLEX. Someday I'm hoping to be able to make it to Fanfest and eve-Vegas and when I do I'll be buying those tickets with PLEX too.
Generally speaking, the RL buying power of PLEX makes it somewhat distinct from pretty much everything else in EVE. |

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Posted - 2015.09.23 08:37:04 -
[38] - Quote
Oh, this thread is getting salty. I may have to start reading it again. |

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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:22:57 -
[39] - Quote
Now this thread is going places!
Why is there no popcorn eating emote on the terrible forum? |

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Posted - 2015.09.25 10:50:51 -
[40] - Quote
Zhaceera Armerarram wrote:The is an old matari saying that goes: "We have 2 eyes, 2 ears, but one mouth for a reason."
Even genetics has proven unable to change that. But some people do speak out of their arses.
[EDIT] Is that a Babylon 5 quote? |

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Posted - 2015.09.25 11:04:49 -
[41] - Quote
Some relevant media for those that don't already follow them:
http://www.legacyofacapsuleer.com/mp3/LOAC_ep_26.mp3
https://www.youtube.com/user/EVEProsper |

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Posted - 2015.09.25 11:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zhaceera Armerarram wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Zhaceera Armerarram wrote: "We have 2 eyes, 2 ears, but one mouth for a reason."
Is that a Babylon 5 quote? that is a saying as old my granny's granny. So is all the humour in Babylon 5. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.25 16:36:17 -
[43] - Quote
Amarr Citizen 155 wrote:it's full of rubbish. You are not wrong there.
But if we close it, many more PLEX threads will spawn to replace it.
It's better we keep the one ****** threadnaught than be plagued by an army of them.
It would be like that scene in Zulu, but with worse singing.
|

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Posted - 2015.09.26 03:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Excitement! |

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Posted - 2015.09.26 11:21:29 -
[45] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:plex is dropping down hard it seems, wonder if the speculators are trying to get out somewhat and taking their profits, before they get caught holding Overvalued stock? The PLEX price clearly overshot. Some people are dumping stocks, some people are taking advantage of the high price to purchase PLEX (-ú/$/etc) and convert to ISK and we may even be seeing a CCP intervention (for possibly the first time this year). I expect it to fall back to ~1.1B and then resume it's climb. It fell back to ~1.12B Buy / ~1.15B Sell before starting to climb again. Now at ~1.17B Buy / ~1.2B Sell.
Prices tend to fall back on the weekends and rise during the week, so it could take another pounding during primetime.
|

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Posted - 2015.09.26 13:24:15 -
[46] - Quote
I disagree, I think the critical period will be today and tomorrow's prime times.
Monday will see an upward movement from wherever those prime times leave us.
After the action of the last few days, I'm only holding the 8 PLEX I need to top up my subs. I'll buy in again once I'm happy we're in the up-turn. |

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Posted - 2015.09.26 14:36:10 -
[47] - Quote
Tom Hagen wrote:I will admit I haven' t read all the 39 pages of this thread. That probably makes you better informed than most then.
|

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Posted - 2015.09.26 17:04:16 -
[48] - Quote
I've been trading PLEX and drinking all day, in equal measure, while I catch up on podcasts/streams and chat with my friends.
Yesterdays drop opened up the spread enough for me to do a lot of 50m-60m flips this morning before the usual PLEX market day activity closed that down to a more normal 10m-20m spread.
Since then it's just been wobbling mostly in the range of 1,160-1,170 Buy 1,170-1,200 Sell.
Those of you that base your analysis on the market graphs alone should actually spend some time watching and trading in the actual market, because those graphs tell only part of the story.
Also basing judgement on where orders are or are not isn't reliable. People know full well that others look at orders as an indicator, so we often either don't put orders up until they are needed or we put up orders that we have no intention of leaving there to be filled.
Anyway, I'm heading out for dinner with some friends, so if you want to trash the PLEX market while I'm away, now is your chance. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.26 20:27:57 -
[49] - Quote
motie one wrote:I do expect speculators to try to shore up their support, before Monday. As a speculator, I cashed out during the obvious peak. Every pundit I know of called it as being overblown and likely to fall back to ~1.1B, as it did.
So the only speculators left with stocks were either asleep at the wheel or holding regardless with the intention of cashing out during the inevitable year end spike.
Why anyone would worry about propping up today's PLEX price, if it were to fall further, rather than letting it drop so that they could buy in heavily at the new floor, is beyond me.
PLEX is headed up to 1.3B-1.5B, regardless of this recent drop, it just outran itself with the recent spike. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 03:42:16 -
[50] - Quote
voetius wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:I further predicted I'm usually a bit sceptical of people that 'predict' things using secret sauce recipes that are too secret to divulge to the masses. After all, if you throw enough darts at the board you are bound to get 180 every now and again. I think he actually provided support for his claims, it's just I can't make head nor tail of his posting.
For clearer predictions, complete with extensive graph porn of a type far beyond the limits of the in-game market browser, I'd refer you to something I included in my previous posts, in advance of the events predicted therein:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIJVf9qMO5k PLEX analysis starts @ 4:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULyk4IryZ6k PLEX analysis starts @ 6:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOJIS5McFcQ PLEX analysis starts @ 6:54
I've given the times for the start of the PLEX analysis, but there is plenty of other good content in those videos.
Tbh, I don't think you needed to apply Lockefox's level of market voodoo and entrail scrying in order to predict what was going to happen. I had already made up my mind when I watched his videos on release and he just confirmed what I was already thinking and gave me some nice graphs, trends and justification for what I was already doing in the PLEX market.
I can't remember and am not going to go back and check, but I think delonewolf made similar, if less detailed predictions in his weekly market run down (EVE Talk).
I'd like to hear VV's view on all this.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 05:47:07 -
[51] - Quote
I'm going against my better instincts in engaging you in conversation motie one, because I think you are fundamentally wrong in almost every respect in your philosophy, predictions and understanding of the EVE/PLEX economy.
I suspect that wrongness comes from some underlying bitterness or angst, which is clouding your judgement, because I see that you do have a grip on economic theories, so you clearly have the mental capacity to understand these things, and yet your view seems to have a Gevlon-esque skew away from reality and down your own private rabbit hole.
Please don't take this as a plot to insult or inflame you, I'm just making a single attempt to break through your delusions and bring you back to reality. If that is unsuccessful or unwelcome, then I apologize wholeheartedly.
motie one wrote:The greater longer term pressure acting out, is the behaviour of those more major entities, who wish to preserve their much larger investment, that is probably too large to crash out without in turn damaging their investment returns as a result. So, these major entities:
Who are they?
Why do they have both a "much larger investment" in something and yet have to exert massive pressure on propping up the value of this thing in the face of strong fundamental market forces that you think work against them?
I question how such a person amasses a large fortune with which to wield such power in the marketplace if they spend their time investing in things that are going against them and have a strong tendency to throw good money after bad in order to hold up their ill-planned schemes.
I don't find this greatly plausible, even if I were to accept your analysis of the PLEX market. I don't feel your analysis is internally consistent. Feel free to explain this to me.
motie one wrote:I do disagree with your projections as to long term values Those were not long term projections. That is how I see things going up until the December holiday sale induced slump. Longer term, moving in to the new year, I expect PLEX to progress much higher.
motie one wrote:We are in my opinion going to see one of two scenarios.
A hard reduction, either created by the action of EvE's economists, or a panic reaction, or both in combination, which may already be primed to occur, or the large Holders using market peaks, to divest over the longer term. As always leaving the less aware or less than competent speculators. and those who are blinded by the promise of historic safety, to carry the loss. We've just gone through those scenarios this weekend.
The hard reduction created by the action of EvE's economists has happened, it's over, we've done it. They pulled the price back into sanity at around 1.15B and are now letting it continue on it's usual upward trend at a more sober pace.
The panic/exit reaction, such that it was, was just people exiting their position at an obvious peak. There wasn't much panic. Just speculators completing their transactions and other people going along with it.
CCP's action obviously made the need to sell somewhat immediate, for those that aren't playing for the future higher prices or who are planning to exit and re-enter in order to cash in on that future price. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 05:55:18 -
[52] - Quote
motie one wrote:I fully understand the logic, where past performance and events extrapolated forward do support your projections, the graph wizardry is persuasive. However past performance, does not guarantee future performance, as we are very well aware of in the real world too. It is a mistake to place too much faith in them. While past performance may be a strong factor in many people's thinking and it certainly helps to maintain the upward PLEX trend. This is not the only, or even the most significant factor in my PLEX investments or those of informed investors.
The simple fact is that PLEX is massively underpriced. As I've said many times.
It's functional value and utility, is much higher than the price you pay for it. If you are a capable player, you will get more out of your 30 days sub than the isk you put in to paying for it. That's a fundamentally good investment for those that can afford to make it.
That functional value and utility is rising and has been rising for a long time. CCP keep adding new ways to make use of that PLEX and have short-medium term plans to keep increasing that utility. It's certainly consistent with their own financial needs to keep the utility of PLEX rising and thereby maintaining demand for it.
Aside from basic sales incentive for CCP to keep PLEX going strong, there is the fact that one of the main fundamental functions of PLEX is to combat RMT. In that respect it is performing well, in that the rate of exchange from RL currency to isk is extremely attractive and there is minimal incentive to take greater risks in the illicit RMT market instead of simply buying PLEX.
The recent past of EVE has been pretty poor:
We've gone through a period where 0.0 stagnated and bored PvP pilots were required (and were able to) tour the length and breadth of EVE in search of what content they could find. The totally solved problem that was Dominion sov was so long in the tooth that it held no surprises for anyone and a steady state had been established and cemented to a degree that had horrendous impacts on the game.
The evolved meta and the results of a succession of nerfs that had rendered capitals somewhat dull and pointless has led to much unsubbing or alts.
The cure to that problem was (and had to be) somewhat extreme and took a lot of us up to the edge. Nerfing capitals in to the ground. Removing the force projection that was needed to extract what little content remained. Leaving us with more or less nothing to do.
Aside from that, there were some pretty disasterous, or just plain painfull, changes in all other aspects of EVE.
It shouldn't come as any surprise that EVE activity and player counts had dropped massively.
But now we're through that dark time and everything before us looks pretty good:
They are replacing the structures they ruined in Crius with new structures that have far greater potential and appear to have far more work being put in to them.
They are re-working capitals and super capitals and the word on the street from CSMs who live and breath capital combat is that we're in for moist underwear and dirty grins.
They are a long way through the process of making the majority of ships and modules in the game non-terrible, but are still clearly committed to this as an eternal struggle.
They are working their way through the issues with their new problem child sov system and the hope and expectation of many is they'll eventually get it to a nice state where we can enjoy a new shiny sov system that actually works for as long as it takes for us to bring it to the same totally solved state as we did with Dominion.
The future outlook for the next six months is one of increasing player numbers, increasing player activity and increasing demand for PLEX.
So please, tell me, why do you feel PLEX price should be dropping in the face of all this positive news and upward forces?
Why do you think that such a fundamentally daft and counter productive idea as an NPC order is needed? |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 07:13:03 -
[53] - Quote
Tbh, if they were to un-break industry by sorting out the terrible ranks system and the overly fast speed of production as well as doing some work on actually improving the overall EVE UI rather than degrading it, I'd be entirely happy with where EVE is and where it's headed.
Given that I'm pretty fussy and have zero tolerance for shoddy work, the fact that I can say that is a pretty impressive complement to CCP.
Oh and they could replace this terrible forum with something good, preferably restoring the features they threw out when they moved to it from the old forums.
I'm not going to bother asking for them to improve EVE PvE, because it's so hateful at the moment that there isn't really much worth saving. I've always advocated they just delete all the missions and non-sandbox PvE from the game and be done with it, but I know that focusing the game on the hard core sandbox player and away from the casual player isn't really a good idea. But seriously, missions are so embarrassingly bad for game content in 2015.
When I can say that CCP are doing a good job, that means pretty much everyone else that is less bitter and demanding than me must be dancing in the streets. When these promises turn into actual implemented, stable and iterated features then we're going to see a lot of re-subbing. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 10:59:08 -
[54] - Quote
motie one wrote:The fact that an incursioneer or null ratter deep in the blue doughnut can earn 200m an hour (sic) does not mean 95% of others see the world from his viewpoint. The thing is that there are only a finite number of PLEXes being created by players handing over their RL currency to CCP and due to the free market sandbox economy of EVE, those PLEXes are always destined to go to the people willing to pay the most for them. The poor player will always have a hard time, unless there are so many PLEXes being created that the richer player's needs are entirely satisfied.
By way of an example with small numbers to make it easy for my arithmetic challenged brain:
A total of 10 PLEX are created this month.
2 get bought by wealthy 0.0 alliances to hand out to their leaders, FCs and logisticians. 2 get bought by wealthy individual players as an investment against future price rises. 2 get bought by wealthy market traders and industrialists. 1 gets bought by wealthy Incursion runners. 1 gets bought by wealthy WH farmers. 2 get bought by middle income no-life grinders that run LV4s, rat or mine constantly to sustain themselves.
There is nothing left for a poor player who despite the desire to do so, cannot afford to pay the price that all those people listed above are prepared to pay. Either because they lack the knowledge, time, determination or enthusiasm to do what it takes to make the isk they need.
The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it.
My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 11:41:39 -
[55] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:You are seeing an effect (lower PCU) and attributing it to higher PLEX prices Whereas I attribute it to the game being terrible for a prolonged period of time, while still asking a very high price for admission.
Predictably a lot of people have decided:
- "Screw this, I'm going to play a better and/or cheaper game!"
- "I'll carry on playing, but I'm damned if I'm going to keep sinking RL cash into buying PLEX to sustain myself."
- "I'll carry on playing, but I'm damned if I'm actually going to pay for a sub."
So PCU drops, PLEX supply reduces and PLEX demand increases.
In case you are interested, #3 is me. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 11:46:20 -
[56] - Quote
motie one wrote:Just how many of your friends have put alts into hibernation because it is too time consuming to grind for the cost of plex? and are unhappy with the loss of funtionality and fun that results in, even though they are still holding on to their main for now? Zero, as far as I can tell.
My friends have left the game because it is bad, or because other games are better, or because they are getting older and now have wives and kids that take up the time that they used to devote to EVE, or because after playing the game for X years they've just had enough of it.
That said, none of my friends are poor, because they are either independently wealthy in EVE or because they have me as a friend and I **** out money like the proverbial golden goose. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 11:49:29 -
[57] - Quote
I can't imagine the hell of playing this game with only one account.
I don't think that's a curse any of my friends are interested in either, except for the few that have been strictly one account only forever. The game just doesn't function very well with only one account, it's almost as if that was intentional. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 12:09:59 -
[58] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Just how many of your friends have put alts into hibernation because it is too time consuming to grind for the cost of plex? and are unhappy with the loss of funtionality and fun that results in, even though they are still holding on to their main for now? Zero, as far as I can tell. My friends have left the game because it is bad, or because other games are better, or because they are getting older and now have wives and kids that take up the time that they used to devote to EVE, or because after playing the game for X years they've just had enough of it. That said, none of my friends are poor, because they are either independently wealthy in EVE or because they have me as a friend and I **** out money like the proverbial golden goose. Actually, maybe half of one.
I personally cut down from around 25 subbed accounts to my current 8-9 about a year ago. I didn't do that because the PLEX prices rose, although that certainly gave me an additional incentive to do so.
I did that because CCP banned my main for something I didn't do, made me go through customer service hell to get myself re-instated, dealing with the most unhelpful and rude people I've ever had to deal with in customer service roles, gave me the most weak apology I have ever seen when they finally figured out they had banned me in error and gave me an insult for reimbursement.
However, I've chosen not to re-sub those accounts, even a year after the event, because (1) CCP still haven't made good on their past behaviour and (2) High PLEX prices make the cold hard business maths of re-subbing those accounts somewhat unattractive. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 13:46:51 -
[59] - Quote
motie one wrote:That must be a miserable experience, my sympathies. At the time it was a pain, but EVE is full of such pains and the life of a successful EVE player is shaped by how they adapt and overcome such obstacles.
I'm more concerned about the fact that CCP lost over -ú3000 in income from me as a result of a minor act of incompetence and I'm certain that I wasn't the only person impacted. Despite the fact that each cancelled sub had that as the reason for cancellation there hasn't been even so much as a mail to smooth things over with me. If I treated my RL clients like that, I wouldn't have any clients. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 14:09:37 -
[60] - Quote
So back on topic.
The PLEX price is now 1184 Buy / 1206 Sell. I don't think any suggested crash is happening.
We're going to see 1.3B again, but more slowly.
We may well see 1.5B by December.
There will be the traditional slump during the holiday season.
Then in the new year PLEX prices will reach for the stars.
This is assuming that CCP don't make any fundamental changes. I'm not talking about central bank intervention, because those will happen when needed to prevent insane spikes as we have seen in the past.
I personally don't care too much if CCP does or doesn't make any fundamental changes because I'm happy with PLEX price being the price people are prepared to pay for PLEX. But you, motie one, have a desire to see some change to deal with your perceived issue. The idea of a NPC order is ridiculous and entirely the opposite of the way EVE is headed. so you should give up any hope of that or anything like it. You could however get behind more viable changes to bring about your desired lowering of the PLEX price, which would have to be something to do with account structure and subscription changes.
Personally, I'd like to see myself only have one account with all my characters on it, not 9 active accounts and 16 inactive accounts. I'd like to see the ability to pay monthly for the particular services I require from CCP. Be that the ability to train X characters on my account, the ability to log on X concurrent characters on my account or the ability to do any other thing CCP can dream up. I'd also love to see this because it would herald the end of having to pay 2 PLEX whenever I need to move a character from one of my own accounts to another of my own accounts for organisational purposes. It would also mean I'd only need one username and password rather than the dictionary of username/password pairs I currently have to manage.
If PLEX become simply the units of payment for the services you use on your account, then PLEX will be a lot better than they are now and accounts will be a lot better than they are now.
If CCP also reduce the RL currency price of Subs/PLEX, we'll probably see some, but not all, of the change you desire. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.27 15:57:31 -
[61] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: The only solution, if indeed there is one, is to encourage more people to buy PLEX with RL currency and make them available on the market. This will occur naturally once more people are playing the game, enjoying it and are willing to invest more RL currency in it.
My personal feeling is that CCP should lower the monthy subscription cost and the PLEX cost, because in today's gaming marketplace the product they are providing isn't worth the price they are charging for it. But that's very much my personal opinion and CCP's numbers may not agree with me or their financial situation may not be able to endure that change.
My thoughts precisely. Not least because an EVE with 1.5x players paying $10/month is substantially more resilient, attractive and entertaining than one with 1.0x players paying $15/month. Assuming the hamsters don't die under the strain, I can't see any reason why we wouldn't want that.
When you were on the CSM, was the subject of pricing ever discussed? |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.30 12:44:56 -
[62] - Quote
Too much peyote and he's gone off the reservation again. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.09.30 13:37:39 -
[63] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:In fact, what passes for analysis on the forums when it comes to markets is just terrible. I agree with you there.
It rarely even qualifies as analysis.
30% wild ass guessing, 30% trolling, 30% manipulation attempts and at best 10% is actual analysis.
Teckos Pech wrote:Look at the front page with claims of manipulation and crashes and even a goofy reference to T2 BPOs (note they didn't crash because of a bubble, the implication, but because the last round of industry changes indirectly nerfed T2 BPOs into the ground). Now most of them are worthless except as collectors items. Now that there are infinite slots, POS' not being necessary, and so forth why invest in a T2 BPO that will take several years to recoup your initial investment? This being an excellent example. Not one bit of good analysis there.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 03:59:14 -
[64] - Quote
1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 04:19:54 -
[65] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:It will stabilize again...then start going up again. With brief periods of decreases. I agree with you there.
Tbh, it's not even that unstable now.
Teckos Pech wrote:There are probably two factors, the huge amounts of ISK entering the New Eden economy, the huge amounts of ISK in many player's wallets. I think that's a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors involved in PLEX prices and it's that complexity that makes it difficult for inexperienced onlookers to comprehend. Plenty of people have tried to reduce it down to one or two factors in order to support their own point of view or agenda, but that's just propaganda. I've found it a pretty interesting market to trade in over the many years I've been (ab)using it.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 04:53:12 -
[66] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:There are probably two factors, the huge amounts of ISK entering the New Eden economy, the huge amounts of ISK in many player's wallets. I think that's a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors involved in PLEX prices and it's that complexity that makes it difficult for inexperienced onlookers to comprehend. Plenty of people have tried to reduce it down to one or two factors in order to support their own point of view or agenda, but that's just propaganda. I've found it a pretty interesting market to trade in over the many years I've been (ab)using it. I was referring to the tendency for prices to increase over time. You are right, there are lots of factors influencing PLEX prices. For example, the higher price in game will likely have a positive effect on the RL sales of PLEX. A sale on PLEX in RL will decrease IG prices, etc....so yeah, I kinda did over simplify.  Plus:
- The perceived quality of the game impacts demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- CCP's marketing efforts impact demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- CCP's PR impacts demand for PLEX both in-game and out of game, pushing the price both up and down.
- The release of skins and other PLEX/Aurum related products push the price up.
- Alliance tournament PLEX buy-ins push the price of PLEX up.
- Fanfest ticket PLEX sales push the price of PLEX up.
- PLEX for good drives push the price of PLEX up.
- Changes in the polices of large alliances can impact price either way.
- The introduction of new skills increase demand for multiple training and push the price up.
- Features that encourage or discourage alts and multiboxing push prices up or down.
- The perceived trajectory of PLEX prices encourages or discourages stockpiling and/or investment, pushing prices either up or down.
- Low margin rapid update station traders discourage the use of casual buy and sell orders, impacting price.
- The actions of speculators push prices in one direction or another.
- The actions of manipulators push prices in one direction or another.
- The RL economy in different regions of the world impacts the affordability of PLEX and subscriptions, impacting price.
- Seasonal factors impact price.
- The public (miss-)understanding of the above factors can push the price up and/or down.
...and more besides. Notice that many of the factors I've listed impact the price both up and down at the same time, making their effect even more complex. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 06:39:55 -
[67] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:True, but one has to wonder for example how much does the Fanfest effect determine prices now and so forth. Indeed. One has to wonder about all of these things, because their exact impact is unknown to us.
We cannot pull apart the specific contribution of each of these factors from the whole. All we can see, with any accuracy, is where the traded price is and where it has been, where the traded volume is and where it has been, where the market orders currently are and (for those of us that use more advanced tools than CCP's market browser provides) where they have been.
We can make more or less educated guesses about the impact of each of these factors, but they remain guesses. We cannot reliably confirm the validity of those guesses because even if the price goes where we expect it to, we cannot be sure that it goes there for the reasons we assert.
Teckos Pech wrote:As for seasonal factors, my analysis indicates: none. Since you don't have access to the data required to make a good analysis of seasonal factors, that doesn't really mean much. It does of course indicate that you're happy to post the same guesswork as others in the name of analysis. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 09:00:26 -
[68] - Quote
motie one wrote:do you REALLY believe that the customers who wish to grind plex are the same customers who would purchase plex outside of the game to buy isk. At different times, they certainly can be.
motie one wrote:No one in their right mind would buy plex out of game and exchange it, where they could buy gametime at a far cheaper rate. There are times and means by which PLEX can be cheaper than direct subscription. Of course I agree that this should not be the case.
motie one wrote:The very definition of someone who Buys Plex to exchange for isk, is that they have insufficient ISK. But insufficient for what? They may have insufficient isk at that point in time for a specific task, but they may not be poor overall. Also the specific task may well be something like buying a Titan, which is beyond the immediate purse of many players but that doesn't make them poor.
motie one wrote:Paying Isk for Plex in game to reexchange for Isk an is equally stupid action. That's certainly not true. I've made a lot of isk buying PLEX with isk and then selling it back for more isk.
motie one wrote:The only End users are those who wish to use it for It's intended purposes. You do like to pick and choose which of the intended purposes of PLEX you will accept as an intended purpose. One of the intended purposes of PLEX is to give players an alternative to illicit RMT, some would say this is it's most important purpose. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 09:01:17 -
[69] - Quote
motie one wrote:Secondly, as I repeatedly tried to explain (but is conviniently ignored) I stated I was not in favour of ANY particular mechanism, I suggest a Balancing mechanism, such as exists for every other item, to allow player actions to influence supply. ie maxallon goes up, miners decide it is worth mining more, supply increases, price balances, the same mechanisms exist for manufacturing, exploration, missioning, and every other activity and commodity. The same mechanism exist for PLEX too. When PLEX prices go up, people have more reason to sell them, people have more reason to produce them, people have a reason to find alternatives to them, it's the same thing.
motie one wrote:No stabilisation is possible by player action of a strategic asset like plex other than letting one's account expire. Only on the demand side do we have an influence, and only in a way that is self destructive. That's simply not true. Players have control over supply and demand. They also have control over the stockpiles.
motie one wrote:I do however find it hard to believe that any player would see this as a positive and desireable situation unless they have a vested interest that is stronger than the desire for a healthy game. You have a narrow view of what is healthy for the game. It appears to revolve around your own personal agenda which isn't in line with what is healthy for the game. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 09:24:20 -
[70] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bobby, there is NO way for players to produce Plex. There is the issue, and sadly, that is what makes Plex unique. Yes there is. Just because it serves your agenda to pretend there is not, doesn't make it so.
motie one wrote:Buying them for cash, does not produce them. It does, regardless of your opinion.
motie one wrote:No In game action can provide a balancing action, at best it moves owner. Any balancing action will involve it moving owner. Supply, demand and stockpiles are all controlled by the player.
motie one wrote:The only way a player can reduce demand is by not playing. Not true. They can reduce demand by unsubbing alts, by paying a subscription, by reducing their non-gametime uses of PLEX.
motie one wrote:And yes that is my opinion, and I believe that not playing is not a good action. Some call it winning eve.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 11:52:51 -
[71] - Quote
motie one wrote:Ok you believe that Plex is a healthy balanced market I didn't say the PLEX market is healthy, I said that your view of what is healthy is scewed.
You seem to think that reducing PLEX price to the extent where it ceases to perform some of it's core functions is healthy for the game.
motie one wrote:with no artificial shortages How is it artificial? It's a free market, where every actor in the market is free to do as they wish. There would only be an artificial shortage if CCP was restricting or limiting the number of PLEX that get created, which they are not.
motie one wrote:and that there is some mechanic, for transferring in game effort into real currency, to enable Plex purchases from CCP or others, to allow them to be brought into game, I said nothing of the sort. That mechanic only existed legally during the period that collector's editions were available for purchase via PLEX. You choose to ignore the fact that players can create PLEX whenever they wish to do so, but spending RL currency.
motie one wrote:to provide the required balance. And what balance is this? What method do you advocate for restoring this mystical balance that will not create a greater evil and do more harm than good?
motie one wrote:So we are always going to disagree. Of course we will, while you remain delusional and comitted to your personal agenda beyond all sense and reason. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.01 12:46:34 -
[72] - Quote
motie one wrote:Well if disagreeing, means the absense of sense and reason No, but repeatedly asking for an explanation that has already been given several times in different wording in the good natured effort to break through your delusion is.
motie one wrote:Please explain the "IN GAME" balancing mechanisms for Plex. It's called the free market. Maybe you have heard of it? It allows people to pay more for things when demand outstrips supply, so as to incentivise more production. It allows people to pay less for things when supply exceeds demand, so as to incentivise a reduction. It's very simple and it works really rather well.
motie one wrote:And explain how in their absense any balance can be achieved without CCP injecting Plex to try to provide temporary liquidity. Explain to me this concept of balance that the question is predicated upon?
motie one wrote:Without an In Game balance machanism the Product will continously increase in price in the long term at an exponentially increasing rate. Citation or proof?
motie one wrote:And it will forever cease to be used for Redemption into Pilots services. Citation or proof?
From the perspective of someone outside of your delusional bubble this conversation looks like this:
"Where are the apples? There are no apples!" "What about the ones on that apple tree there?" "Where are the apples? There are no apples!" "Seriously mate, can't you see all the apples on that tree?" "Where are the apples? There are no apples!" "Here, take this apple." "Where are the apples? There are no apples!" "There are plenty of apples, you are quite mad."
Sadly where everyone else sees apples, you only see oranges. It isn't our fault.
|

Bad Bobby
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1209
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Posted - 2015.10.01 15:15:11 -
[73] - Quote
motie one wrote:You totally ignored the question. I didn't. I answered it directly. You just ignored the answer.
I've answered it several times and each time you ignored or dismissed the answer.
How many times can I answer the same question, taking different approaches each time?
motie one wrote:The long and short of it is that a free market only functions if there is the ability for the supply side and the demand site to create an equilibrium. Which is what we have and the price is the price.
Why exactly do you think that the current method of producing PLEX is to be ignored? You have exactly what you asked for, I've pointed at it repeatedly, but you choose to ignore and dismiss it. I can't really help you with that. The apples are there, whether you choose to see them or not.
motie one wrote:As it is, the inherent value of the product, is currently purely a token for market exchange/speculative storage , and within game are no longer being used in the majority for exchange to pilot's services. Citation or proof?
You continue to say these things, but you have nothing at all to back it up. Even when CCP state publicly that everything is fine and the sub/PLEX balance is within acceptable limits, you just don't accept it.
motie one wrote:It seems that you think I am mistaken in believing that plex has such a role? I believe PLEX has several roles. Everyone but you, it seems, believes this. It's understandable why, since CCP has said as much and CCP has continued to add new purposes to PLEX.
motie one wrote:But cut the bits you like out of that and give an answer to points I didn't raise. Given how many posts I've made in response to yours and how many of your points I have dealt with, I don't see you have any kind of argument there. You are just banging on with the same old line which has no justification whatsoever.
Anyway, this discussion ceased to fun or helpful to anyone. As I said initially, I engaged you in conversation on this subject against my better judgement. You are clearly not going to make any progress and it's no skin off my nose if you continue to be delusional and frustrated. |

Bad Bobby
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1225
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Posted - 2015.10.02 03:32:20 -
[74] - Quote
motie one wrote:Carry on, possibly you should speak to people who know the way real world economies work. Why? You've been speaking to people who know how the EVE economy works and it doesn't appear to have helped you at all.
|

Bad Bobby
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1225
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Posted - 2015.10.02 04:52:53 -
[75] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm
PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. |

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1228
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Posted - 2015.10.03 01:09:02 -
[76] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm
PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! |

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1229
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Posted - 2015.10.03 01:28:55 -
[77] - Quote
Bootneck wrote:Be funny if the 1,080 people with sell orders were the same 1,080 people with buy orders and there was only actually 30 genuine plex sellers beyond the 1,080 in a circlejerk of margin trading.
Greater fool theory etc. Those numbers are the prices, not the number of orders.
Any issue you may have with the "circlejerk of margin trading" is misplaced, as those people are not responsible for the PLEX price, they just follow the price up and down flipping from buy to sell. In fact those people actually provide liquidity in the market, which is a good thing.
The greater fool theory wouldn't be applicable to them either. I think you are thinking about speculators, who are an entirely different type of trader.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 04:45:28 -
[78] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! 1,112 Sell / 1,096 Buy atm |

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1233
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Posted - 2015.10.04 06:50:52 -
[79] - Quote
Already answered, if you read back. Hence my smugposting the prices. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 11:55:55 -
[80] - Quote
1,153 Sell / 1,135 Buy atm
It's not what's going on in the buy orders that is important right now. I could do with keeping the price down for at least another day, so feel free to continue the deranged tinfoil doomsaying. Alternatively: buy, buy, buy!
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 13:25:20 -
[81] - Quote
motie one wrote:Fine, Glad it is helpful, It might even turn out to be right, then you can buy even cheaper!!! That is what I said before.
Remember that you are the one that thinks propping up PLEX prices makes sense, I'm the one that thinks anyone doing so is an idiot.
motie one wrote:Keep it up though, someone might buy enough to let you exit your position eventually, one can always hope? Why would I be holding a position? |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 13:51:54 -
[82] - Quote
Shar Tegral wrote:Then, suddenly, I realized that you are a buffoon and don't know what you are talking about. Once I realized that, your post made much sense. |

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
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Posted - 2015.10.04 14:26:29 -
[83] - Quote
motie one wrote:Glad you are not, it could get messy. It's not that it could get messy, it's that it's either idiotic or redundant.
motie one wrote:And as for propping up Plex prices, some will believe it is in their best interests What reason would they have for believing that? What set of circumstances would make it beneficial?
Sure there will be the odd fool out there behaving irrationally on the market, but it's unlikely that such a person would wield sufficient isk to make an impact on the market, because fools don't generally have that kind of isk.
You are advancing tinfoil theories that are predicated on their being a super rich illuminati that is staffed entirely with imbeciles that are hell bent on losing their isk. I don't think the existence of such a group is plausible, because the entire concept is contradictory.
motie one wrote:Thanks for clarifying, we are appearing on these points to be fully in agreement. Which points? The only point I advanced was that you are delusional. It would be somewhat paradoxical if you were to agree with me. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 14:40:44 -
[84] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Glad you are not, it could get messy. It's not that it could get messy, it's that it's either idiotic or redundant. motie one wrote:And as for propping up Plex prices, some will believe it is in their best interests What reason would they have for believing that? What set of circumstances would make it beneficial? Sure there will be the odd fool out there behaving irrationally on the market, but it's unlikely that such a person would wield sufficient isk to make an impact on the market, because fools don't generally have that kind of isk. You are advancing tinfoil theories that are predicated on their being a super rich illuminati that is staffed entirely with imbeciles that are hell bent on losing their isk. I don't think the existence of such a group is plausible, because the entire concept is contradictory. motie one wrote:Thanks for clarifying, we are appearing on these points to be fully in agreement. Which points? The only point I advanced was that you are delusional. It would be somewhat paradoxical if you were to agree with me. For someone who seems to have reasonable market insight, it is surprising how you so fail to understand the motivations of those you deal with with many of your transactions, seeing Plex as purely a token to keep score,of your trading gains, clearly blinds you to the wider aspects. I'll leave it at that. It is so much easier, not to see the obvious. I will leave you with your world view, as it is clearly hard for you to imagine otherwise, and possibly make you a less effective trader if you had to consider the whole picture. So you are just going to throw around the tinfoil and coward out whenever anyone calls you on it?
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 15:03:25 -
[85] - Quote
motie one wrote:There is more than enough already posted as to explanations and justifications for my comments. A bit too much for you to reduce to a dismissive one line attack. Do you really believe readers are that stupid? And that would work? I'm not speaking to "readers" I'm speaking to you. I'm calling you out for posting baseless nonsense. You can either defend your claims or not.
I think you are just here to troll and spout gibberish. You can prove me wrong if you wish. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 16:23:26 -
[86] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bobby? Not so much that it counts. So now I'm incompetent as well as an evil imbecile? This is getting better.
motie one wrote:Others? One would be naive not to know that. So you know that these evil imbeciles exist? |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 16:36:55 -
[87] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Bobby? Not so much that it counts. So now I'm incompetent as well as an evil imbecile? This is getting better. motie one wrote:Others? One would be naive not to know that. So you know that these evil imbeciles exist? Bobby If you had any capability to extract meaning from words, you should know precisely my opinion. ...and I'm illiterate too? |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 16:46:03 -
[88] - Quote
motie one wrote:Possibly this thread should get back to the subject of plex and not how others see you? No this thread should totally be about me.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 16:49:26 -
[89] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:It's dangerous to go alone! Take this. <3 |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 16:54:02 -
[90] - Quote
motie one wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:Possibly this thread should get back to the subject of plex and not how others see you? No this thread should totally be about me. Nice to see the Eve O forums continuing to provide interesting and worthwhile discussion.  Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 17:36:15 -
[91] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:Confirmed that it costs more to drag 2 PLEx from the Login Client over to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
However, it worked the first time around, although I heard a targeting sound trying to scan my cargo on exit. Are you telling me that you are actually moving plex away from Jita 4-4?
May I ask why? |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 17:45:20 -
[92] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Gadolf Agalder wrote:Confirmed that it costs more to drag 2 PLEx from the Login Client over to a pilot docked in station 2 jumps away from Jita IV-4 Nav.
However, it worked the first time around, although I heard a targeting sound trying to scan my cargo on exit. Are you telling me that you are actually moving plex away from Jita 4-4? May I ask why? No , actually, as you can read, he was moving it TO Jita 4-4. Not AWAY From as you suggested. Erm?
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.04 17:59:58 -
[93] - Quote
Gadolf Agalder wrote:The reason why is because I thought that it was going to let me move the PLEx to a station from the ingame Redeem option, rather than making them Station Bound after dragging the items from the Login client. That doesn't explain why you would want to move them.
You can apply them to a pilot regardless of where the PLEX and the pilot are located, so there is no need to move them away from Jita 4-4. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.05 10:47:58 -
[94] - Quote
motie one wrote:My response, is no different than if I was a doctor Quick, run, before he puts the leeches on you! |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.05 11:15:16 -
[95] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:My response, is no different than if I was a doctor Quick, run, before he puts the leeches on you! Leeches implies that at least once, his level of knowledge was considered adequate. Perhaps 'run before he gets out his crystals'? Though I hope motie doesn't stop, this is comedy gold. Maybe striking him repeatedly with a willow branch will cure him of this malady? |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.05 13:19:50 -
[96] - Quote
The PLEX sale has ended. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.05 15:09:14 -
[97] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1,174 Sell / 1,126 Buy atm
The combination of the CCP intervention at the end of last week and the ongoing PLEX sale appears to be having some effect. We've seen this before though and it will only be temporary.
I've already called the current stable price of plex at ~1.1B and I expect to see that rise to ~1.2B once these downward pressures have passed. It will be interesting to see if it falls bellow 1.1B this week, it will be a buying opportunity if it does. 1,129 Sell / 1,104 Buy atm PLEX sale still going strong. Looking good to dip bellow 1.1B during the next few days. As with all previous PLEX sales, the price will bounce back up as soon as the sale is over, so when it goes below 1.1B you should be buying ready to cash in post sale. 1,110 Sell / 1,080 Buy atm PLEX sale still going. Buy, buy, buy! 1,112 Sell / 1,096 Buy atm 1,144 Sell / 1,135 Buy atm
PLEX sale over. Last chance to buy low.
I'm personally switching back from flipping to speculating now. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.06 02:07:29 -
[98] - Quote
Alexi Stokov wrote:I have zero idea of what to make on any of this I think we have more than one candidate for the willow branch treatment tbh. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.06 02:29:06 -
[99] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:motie one wrote:plex is dropping down hard it seems, wonder if the speculators are trying to get out somewhat and taking their profits, before they get caught holding Overvalued stock? The PLEX price clearly overshot. Some people are dumping stocks, some people are taking advantage of the high price to purchase PLEX (-ú/$/etc) and convert to ISK and we may even be seeing a CCP intervention (for possibly the first time this year). I expect it to fall back to ~1.1B and then resume it's climb. 1,154 Sell / 1,138 Buy atm
Yeah, I didn't think my predictions were controversial. But some people seemed to think it was the beginning of the end.
Lockefox called it the same as I did, but with less words and more graphs.
Delonewolf said he'd invest half of his wealth if it fell below 1B, but I didn't see a fall of that magnitude being likely.
I'm happy to have picked up six month's supply of PLEX for my alt army at a reduced price. Maybe we'll see another spike that will warrant me cashing these in, but I'm inclined to think I'll just be using them. Shame I didn't have the time or liquidity to invest another 100B or so, but the PLEX sale was over pretty quick. The period of instability made for some nice flipping profits, but the margin and volume have now shrunk back to more normal levels.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2015.10.06 04:40:22 -
[100] - Quote
You're quite capable of doing your own smugging, I don't have to do it for you :) |

Bad Bobby
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1264
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Posted - 2015.11.25 06:27:48 -
[101] - Quote
Will it hit 1.3B again before the PLEX sale? |

Bad Bobby
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1264
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Posted - 2015.11.26 11:02:42 -
[102] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Well a sale on Black Friday is not exactly unexpected.....
What is unexpected is that the in game price is actually still trending slightly upwards. Why would you expect any different? People who are planning to buy PLEX for cash and then sell them for ISK are sensibly putting off that transaction until the Black Friday sale.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2016.02.16 16:27:32 -
[103] - Quote
Everything is proceeding as I have forseen. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2016.02.16 17:17:57 -
[104] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:So when do you foresee the next big up turn? When skill extractor madness has died down. Give it a week or two.
But longer term I think things are going to be pretty interesting. I'm looking to see what kind of dynamics set up between PLEX and Skill Injector prices. We've just gone through an unprecedented week in the PLEX market and interested to see what the future holds. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2016.03.05 04:30:30 -
[105] - Quote
Elizabeth Norn wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Everything is proceeding as I have forseen. Bad Bobby wrote:Angelica Everstar wrote:So when do you foresee the next big up turn? When skill extractor madness has died down. Give it a week or two. But longer term I think things are going to be pretty interesting. I'm looking to see what kind of dynamics set up between PLEX and Skill Injector prices. We've just gone through an unprecedented week in the PLEX market and interested to see what the future holds. What now, captain?  Abandon ship!
Women and children first! |

Bad Bobby
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1302
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Posted - 2016.03.15 14:18:16 -
[106] - Quote
Tazinas2 wrote:All I will say is 1.1 B isk is worth more than ~ $17. To you, maybe.
But to many people, including myself, ISK is pretty much worthless compared to RL currency.
|

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2016.03.15 17:13:53 -
[107] - Quote
I don't think we're talking about the same game.
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Bad Bobby
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1304
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Posted - 2016.03.16 11:26:31 -
[108] - Quote
I'm pretty sure there is suitable medication available. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2016.03.16 11:41:08 -
[109] - Quote
That's funny, I was just saying the same to my stock broker the other day. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2016.03.17 13:21:59 -
[110] - Quote
 |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2016.03.17 19:26:09 -
[111] - Quote
Buzz Orti wrote:Was it you Bad Bobby mentioning about informing your broker about related events aimed at PLEX Prices changes , such as those events that try to cover changes by making them seem off-topic? It was my posts about your posts being gibberish, if that's what you mean.
How that is off topic is anyone's guess. |

Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2016.03.19 06:51:20 -
[112] - Quote
And...
PLEX is 1B again! |
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